For the many commenters wondering about how the ranking list would be presented, starter points etc...we now have an answer.
New professionals will receive 5,040 starter points, equal to the eighth placed player on the one-year list from last season not already on the tour.
Players who played on the tour in 2008/09 but not 2009/10 do not keep the points they earned in the first season.
The WPBSA has issued the first ranking list of the season WITHOUT the points for the first three tournaments of the 2008/09 campaign removed.
These will be removed at the first cut-off point in October.
The problem with this is that the list gives a misleading picture. As it stands right now, Ronnie O'Sullivan appears to be second in the rankings but, if you subtract the points that will come off in October, he is actually fourth.
This latter list is more representative of the true position - a bit like the provisional list we have been used to for years and years - and can be followed thanks to the excellent work undertaken at Pro Snooker Blog.
Perhaps the WPBSA should issue two lists: pre and post points deduction so that players and everyone else can follow the various movements.
Or maybe that would just confuse people even more.
62 comments:
I suppose you mean WITHOUT REMOVING the points...
It's not only misleading, it doesn't make sense actually. The official list is frozen until the first cut-off point and this doesn't give an accurate picture of the provisional standings.
I was correct anyway & so was Global Snooker.
The total points players have in October will determine their seeding upto December.
There is every chance Ronnie could be seeded 2nd upto the UK Champs.
It just means that when Ronnie gets a revised 2 year starter allocation in October - his new set of starter pts might have him in 4th or 5th place - which he then has to build back up.
But,he would still be seeded 2nd anyway !
Still,if Pro Snooker want to continue with their provisional,
provisional list - that's ok.
no dave world snooker should issue 1 list and the list that matt has done.
im absalutly shocked by their inability to understand the concept of rolling rankings.
we cant blame barry hearn for this but theres someone in WS that is in a job he or she shouldn't be in not to understand the basics of this is shocking.
We've had two lists for the last 30 years, we can handle two lists again: the official list - which is what they have put out today - and the provisional list with the points removed.
It's simple but not a surprise they have made the wrong call based on everything we know about them.
Dead right you are Dave. When you think about it, the lists used by Global and world snooker are effectively nothing lists.
The official rankings will be used until the cut off, then the provisional rankings(i.e, the ones on pro snooker) will become the official rankings after the world open.
The way WS and GS are presenting their lists will include THREE Shanghai masters.
At no stage will a tournament have three events featured in a ranking list so why cause confusion by putting them in the provisional list.
Im surprised at Janie of GS yesterday talking about different ways of "presenting" the list, their way and Matts way.
There are only two ways, the right way and the wrong way, and it looks as if we're going to have to wait until after the Shanghai masters for the old codgers to realise theirs is the wrong way.
Until then, pro snooker it is.
no CHRISK5 you are incorrect and unbelievebly seing as its their system so is world snooker.
The way WS and GS are presenting their lists will include THREE Shanghai masters.
___________________________________
dont blame globalsnooker they are as we now have found out following WS Protocall..
chrisk5 you do write some rubbish. not only are you wrong but u think u are right. where did they get u from? u and mr hey u are the only people on this blog who cant get it into there heads how the rankings work.
The chasm is simple.
Pro Snooker have been calculating what the players' starter pts will be in October.
But - The Global,World Snooker lists will tally the totals which determine the actual seedings for October-December.
In the coming months,you will see that a player's seeding position can be quite different from the starter pts allocations they have to build back up for a set period.
What Pro Snooker are doing is working out what the actual seeding positions might be for the January Masters !! - which really is provisional,provisional.
WS & GS have got it spot on.
chris
are you working for World Snooker ?
because that does not make any sense in fact its more senseless than the actual Rankings whitch is wrong issued today from world snooker.
there is no if or maybe about it world snooker has issued a totally pointless ranking list when it comes to seeding for tournaments this season.
oh boy I defenetly have to get used to that...
What happened with the starter points for the players that entered the tour last year like Tony Drago and Bjorn Haneveer?
Chris, the total points will not set the seedings for October. The seedings up until October will be done off the old two year list. The seedings in october will be done off he rankings after the new points have been added but the old points have been deducted.
The 'ranking' inbetween cut-off points is completely irrelevant and pointless because it doesn't count for anything. The only rankings that matter are the start rank, and the three ranking updates after the cut-offs. The 'provisional' rankings on pro snooker are the best indicator of what those official rankings will be and will converge to the new official rankings as the results come in.
Snooker © The Fine Art Method
A secrete is wasted if not shared
Dear Mr X @ 14:23pm Hello Dave
Thanks mister for the plug. I have never commented Sir on the new points system. The answer to that puzzle reminded me of the office boy that assured the boss that he had double checked a line of figures a dozen times and had the twelve answers to prove it.
To Mr Cricks @ 11:47 pm. The possibility of the bold Ronnie (on coaching) “Producing” even one youngster to advance level is a fairy story.
Top players don’t know themselves what they are doing right or doing wrong. There is always a degree of success with the “Watch Me” and I’ll show you again method but invariable leads to exasperation in both the student and coach.
No disrespect to Ronnie mister or to Steve Davis and Stephen Hendry who are both coaching there male off-springs. Coaching has no relationship to playing which originated by watching and copying others good habits without seeking explanation. Mr Hey You
I can't bother to look WS version, but if it's what I think it is, then it's not "totally pointless when it comes to seeding", because it's all about seeding. So let's put it this way: it's "not useful" for anyone except the authorities.
It seems CHRISK5 doesn't clearly understand "the prosnooker method". OR it may be that I just don't understand CHRISK5. Either way. And also it has to be pointed out that it's out of place to say that one version is "right" and the other "wrong", as they serve different purposes. Both lists have a place and meaning in this world.
However, to me it's clear that for players and fans "the prosnooker method" is the useful one, and should also be found at WS site. Matt should actually be knighted for his services to snooker. :)
Betty - If the seedings list is gonna be based on starter points in October - not the totals that WS & GS have them approaching.
All lists are fundamentally wrong at this point - for one reason or another.
porridge
the world snooker "provisional" rankings serve no perpose at all its a fairytale.
there is no logical reason to have it.
im convinced a world snooker employee has worked it out like that and when Barry Hearn will get round to see it he will be horrified at it.
Well it is work experience week in British schools isn't it?
I have copies of both ranking lists so I am not so bothered about who is correct.
Dave - Do you know if seedings for October-December will be based on the starter pts in October ? - If so,Pro Snooker is correct.
Or,if the seedings for Oct-Dec are based on the 2 year totals PLUS
the next 8 counting events ?
If so - World Snooker & Global are correct.
This answer will solve the dilemma once & for all !
Cheers for the plug Dave, much appreciated.
On the whole subject, I'm not really surprised that they have posted it like that, after all Dave said in his original post that points would be removed at the October update and indeed I've never once said anything different.
Just for me the way I have done it at least gives a more accurate/up to date position as including the points from early 2008/9 to me doesn't really give you a rolling ranking list. The way I understand it, the seedings for the UK and the Masters won't take into account the points from the start of 08/09, so there seems to be little point in including them.
I'll keep doing them as I am anyway and will get the starter points and the players lower down the list tidied up within 24 hours all being well.
World Snooker have dropped a clanger here! The whole concept of rolling rankings and the way they work is to be highly applauded, but for gods sake make certain the mother site has all the information!
If they want the system to work, they must make sure it's comprehensibly on the World Snooker website so there can be no confusion and so that everyone knows the score.
All they've done now is give licence to people like CHRISK5 (no offence) to speculate and cause even more confusion over what is essentially a pretty straight forward concept.
Maybe Matt from prosnookerblog can hold a meeting with World Snooker and explain to them how their own ranking system works and how best to publish the information!
no chris for the oct/dec updates it will be points from Barhain 2008 through to EPTC2 that will count towards their Rankings.
points from NIT,shanghai and grand prix 2008 will be nil and void disapered Never to be seen again.
That last comment wasn't from me but I had to edit out swearing (keep it clean please)
In fact I've deleted it
But the argument was this: 2 lists
The first is the official list as at the end of the World Championship
The second is a provisional list as Matt has worked out on PSB
That then becomes the official list in October and a new provisional list is worked out by dropping the next set of points (2008 Bahrain Championship and UK Championship)
Have to say it looks a sensible idea to me
PSB is Pro Snooker Blog by the way, not the Pet Shop Boys
OK I'll admit it, this has finally driven me insane
They do have an official list called "official rankings" which has Robertson at number 2. They have this new list called "Latest rankings" which has the PTC points added on which sees Ronnie move up to second place.
Presumably these are some sort of provisional rankings otherwise why have a different list called "official rankings" still on the site. This new list appears to be along the lines of the old provisional list but they've botched it because if it is just a provisional list then it should have the Shanghai and NIT taken off it.
It's also quite clear from this new list that the starter points form last season have already been removed - the only starter points tehre are this season's.
Dave
i dont know how WS Works but what i do know every decision and mess they will be doing from now on will be blamed on Barry Hearn.
i dont think Barry will agree with how they have issued the list and it smells of people not actually understanding it putting it together.
at the moment its not that important however when the new points will start to pile on and the old points still there that shouldn't instead of clarification the new rankings will be more complicated than they have ever been before
Hmmm... The points are the same on WS list and Global-Snooker's list. So what exactly is this "fairytale" thing then? The WS list serves an exclusive purpose indeed; This list must be there for seeding purposes under their new system. We can always argue if the system as a whole in place now is good or bad, but that's beside the point now. THE WS LIST HAS A PURPOSE. To me, this isn't a question of "logics" so at least I don't have to take back any words I uttered in my first post. Someone else might have to. :)
And where does it actually say they're "provisional"? I mean, I agree that WS and Global-Snooker's lists cannot really be called "provisional" but is this word actually mentioned anywhere... And even if it was mentioned somewhere, being a non-english speaker I don't have to dwell on the english sporting semantics. I'm above all that. :)
Surely the list that will decide seedings until October is the official list released after the World Champs?
There's a Go West gag in there somewhere.
To be quite honest I think it's quite straightforward. You have your official list which determines the seedings from now until October, then you have the next list from Bahrain 08-October 10 which determines the seedings from October to December, so then the points from Jan 09-Jan 11 will determine the seedings for the next few events and so on.
The way I see it there is still an official and a provisional list just like there has always been, just that the provisionals are made official more often than before.
I don't really see how their 'latest rankings' page is really relevant when those rankings aren't actually going to be determining seedings between now and October. They just seem a little redundant to me, unless I've misunderstood the whole thing somewhere down the line!
The biggest problem I have with their list is that it's impossible to read unless your screen is about two miles wide!
The biggest problem I have with their list is that it's impossible to read unless your screen is about two miles wide!
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That's true, although I guess the positive is that you can see exactly where all of the points have come from so all of the information is there.
It's hard to really make it fit on one page though, I've barely been able to manage it as I'm limited by my blog template.
Bet it would look nice on a wide-screen monitor actually.
Matt
it is straightforward however WS in i hate to say it but in old tradition has managed to cause the confusion by starting to add the 3rd season points on top of the other 2 years.doh
I hope you answered my question, Dave, so I wouldn't write the next for nothing.
Yes, you're right, although that wasn't my point and didn't suggest otherwise anyway. It's crystal clear even to me that the draws are now made from the "official" list released after WC, and by this I don't mean a toilet.
The point was that this list WS has now released (the latest rankings pdf file) isn't a surprise to me at all. This kind of list and these points were expected. Matt labels it "redundant", and well, it may be a good choice of word actually, I find the redundancy true in a big picture as well, but only in a sense that the whole system could be better. But that's how the system works now.
The community could of course now try to push for some changes (like these just mentioned). And by "community" I practically mean only you, Dave. Don't let us down. :)
Matt and Dave are 100% correct on this, Its hardly rocket science, the rolling rankings are not really any different to the old rankings system OTHER than the fact they are updated more often.
Therefore as before there needs to be 2 ranking lists, a fixed official rankings list which is the final standings from the most recent cut off point.
And the provisional list starts with the points which will be dropped from the end of the next cut off points, deducted from the start so a true position can be seen as to where players will end up at the cut off.
The WSA rankings list at the moment is the equivalent of the old system being a provisional ranking list with the previous 2 seasons points plus the first points from a 3rd season, the current season, which would instantly be seen to be silly to all, which is exactly what this also is.
Porridge, World Snooker have said how the seedings will be done. The seedings up until October will use the rankings as updated after the WC (i.e. what they call the official rankings on the World Snooker site). They stipulate that the seedings will be updated in October by adding on the points accumulated up to that point and dropping the points from the NIT, Shanghai and Grand Prix. So it's crystal clear how the seedings will work, and this list called "Latest rankings" doesn't decide the seedings.
Presumably the list called "official rankings" (which is incidentally the list that is currently being used for seedings up until October) is indeed the official rankings, which leaves us all wondeirng what purpose the "Latest rankings" serve?
They are not official rankings (because there is another list called that), they are not used for seedings according to World Snooker, and as they stand they are not provisional rankings either because they haven't dropped the points that need to come off.
If they are official rankings then why is there another list called "official rankings"? If they are going to be used for seedings then what is all this stuff about "cut-off points" to update the seedings? And if they are provisional rankings then why haven't they dropped the points?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2GtGy0zXC0
"There are more questions than answers and the more i find out the less i know"
I have a dream ;
Barry Hearn,Steve Davis,Clive Everton,Dave Hendon ?,Phil Yates,
Chris Turner,Chris Downer will have a comittee meeting,tea & biscuits a plenty - the most respected brains in Snooker have a very tricky dilemma.....
Then suddenly - rejoice ! - They say they have a 'consensus ranking list' to put forward to the people' ........and everybody lived happily ever after ! aaahhh
What worries me is if these starterpoints are correct theres very little chance of seeing any of the new players getting into the top 64 during the season.
I was expecting higher startingpoints and then removing a fixed part of that each cutoff.
Same with the starterpoints for 2nd year pro's. Tony Drago dropped 10 places now that they just cut his starterpoints.
Nott
while players inside the top 64 gets point from the 2008/2009 season taken away during the season the new pros points will not be taken away because they did not play during 2008/2009 so for example Joe Delaney between now and The 2011 world championship will get 7,282 points he earned from 08-09 taken away which leaves him on 5,735 points which actually leaves him pretty level with the new pros with 2010/2011 points to play for.
I have a dream. Chrisk 5 admits that he is incapable of understanding a fairly simple change to the ranking system even after its been explained to him in detail 100 times.
i hasten to add that what should happen if World Snooker Actually understands how it works and on this weeks evidence im not overly confident they do and are pretty clueless about it.
2:20 PM
Yes, it will be corrected at the end of the season when 1st and 2nd year pro's catch up, but as it seems now they are at a big disadvantage at the start of the season having only one season worth of points.
IMO 2nd year pro's should keep theire starterpoints from theire 1st season and have a fixed % taken of it at each cutoff, and 1st year pro's should get more starterpoints(two years worth) and also a fixed % taken off at each cutoff.
i think this is spot on how they work out starter points.
they should have a fair playing field but also have to work to clime the rankings.
world snooker has pitches starter points perfectly
For all those critics of rolling rankings, all types of ranking system are rolling to an extent, even the old snooker one rolled but only once a year........
One thing im dissapointed with in the new set up though is the lack of any points for season 08/09 for the newcomers like Figeurido and also those new to the tour last season like Drago who get their 09/10 starter points deducted.
This means all of these guys pretty much will prop up the rankings all season long. Sure they arent getting 08/09 points deducted from their tally as they dont have any in their totals ans whilst as the others above them do, the gap will close, it does mean that they will be stuck in the first ring of qualifying all season long, so its just similar to the old system where it will be hard for tour newcomers to quickly move up the rankings.
Further up it isnt a problem because all of these established guys are on a level playing field to an extent so the form players will reap the rewards instantly and vice versa the off form players.
With no safety net of the one year top 8 list for those outwith the top 64, i fear come the end of this season yet again the "mediocrity" will be rewarded
Anon 2.26pm - 'A fairly simple change to the ranking system'
If it were that simple - then why are World Snooker/Global rank list very different from Pro Snookers interpretation ?!?!
Nobody can give me an answer as to which list is more relevant for how seedings will be from October onwards.
That's where the current confusion is at present.
Chrisk5,
of course Pro Snookers list is more relevant.
The one of WS doesnt meany anything, its neither the official list nor the provisional list which will become official from October. Therefore its totally pointless (unless they realise the gaffe and omit the first batch of points from 08/09 season!!)
CHRISK 5.41. It really is that simple. the person doing the list on WS dosent understand what a provisional list is. global snooker are blindly following WS and pro snooker have the correct list. WS will cop this error after a few days and GS will too im sure.
In the meantime seedings will be taken from the old 2 year list after this years world champs. after the world open the current provisional rankings become the official rankings for the next batch of tournaments,so pro snookers list is a snapshot of these rankings at the current time and will be used as seedings from oct.WS and GS lists will never have any relevance and should be ignored.
chris
im telling you now.
if you want to get running order on how seedings will be for the UK and the masters totally ignore how World Snooker does it and follow prosnooker blog.
as you see Pro snooker has Ebdon in pole position for a masters spot thats the true reflection.
The confusion has arisen from an unusually early start to the season.
However,the 2008/2009 season started in September.
So,just maybe.....World Snooker & Global are basing the next seeding list on the Sep 2008-Sep 2010 totals !! = 2 year totals.
You're never going to get exact timings on when events get taken off the list - Getting as close as possible is the objective !
The autumn 2008 (3 rank event) points HAVE NOT been taken off the list yet - according to World Snooker & Global.
It must have a reason & a purpose.
Technically - The anamoly is the
WS/GS lists will have 25 months worth of points in early October
at the revision stage.
But,nobody knows if it's the total points (in early Oct) which will decide seedings for the next phase OR the new set of starter pts that Pro Snooker are focused on.
Time will tell.
"It must have a reason & a purpose."
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not really any purpose what so ever its as pointless as square wheels or a Plastic saucepan.
time wont tell because i know now mate.
For everyone's information I've now put the starter points onto my list, any mistakes let me know and I'll make the necessary changes.
Everybody apart from you knows that it is NOT the total points but those on prosnookerblog!
At each cut-off point the players on starter points from last season should have 25% taken off. It wouldn't be exact but it would make the playing field a bit move level.
Chrisk- Tell it to the hand
i was actually a victim of the worst ranking points decision ever .where if i lost my 1st match in an overseas event i would only recieve 1/3 points . IF it was in the uk then i would get 1/2 points . madness.
OMG
now another World Snooker Clanger
Awarding 7,000 points for the winner of the WORLD OPEN.
how pathetic is that best of 5s gets 7,000 thats just about the equivalent to 3 PTC Best of 7s.
Welsh Open which has more frames played and has 5,000 points to the winner.
this is pathetic.
11.19am
Hi Wild ;)
i agree to an extent though that if anything now the Worlds and UK are devalued. Perhaps 12,000 and 9,000 points respectively would be fairer for these 2 events given there supposed prestige and importance.
LOL
i just dont see the sense of having winning a welsh open and 1 PTC with all the frames that entail and late nights being equal to the world Open
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